tortured.
means.
Montis
Government that no prisoner is to be given up that the criminals who as a general rule are bad an opportunity of returning to Her Majesty's without the understanding that he will not be pursued into this Colony, are not the deep-dyed dominions be detained or tried in China for any That remains the same as before. villaine the Chinese neighbouring Viceroys wish offence committed before his surrender other We can put it into this Bill; it has never to punish, but are men who, though not perhaps than the extradition crime on which the surren been pat into any Bill before. Why it cannot entirely clean-handed. are not so bad as they are dor is demanded; and I may say the forth bee is clear, it would practically be limiting painted. Usually they are mon against whom restriction is that he is not to be given up an il The treaty. The undertaking that there will be there is some political charge or men who are fifteen days after the investigation by the Ma- Juo torture i always demanded and is always wanted because they have come from Fonung or ristrate. A further improvement in the Ordin
given. Special orders have been given by the Singapore or some other place where the Chinese| Secretary of State that, fronty or no tresty, the authorities could not levy charges upon them suce may be noticed, namely, that after the in- vestigation by the Magistrate, and assuming the Governor shall not give up any prisoner without This belief amounts to a conviction in my Magistrate bas decided to commit him to await that nadertaking. Of course pon may say that mind, and I am satisfied that if the Bill is the Governor's orders, the fugitive oriminial undertaking is not carried out. How can you postponed for six months and a close investi-is to be informed that he will not be given ensure that it will be?
Can you suggest gation made into the matter, the authorities up for these fifteen days, and he is also which any
by
conld you
do of this Colony will see that these men are not to be informed of his right to a writ of so without rendering it impossible to send common thieves or pirates. The ciroumstances habeas corpus. Hitherto that has been 1 t any prisoner away You certainly cannot of Hongkong, in which we are placed, are entirely, to the digestion of the Magistrath, this Bill exact from & Government like that of China different from those which obtain elsewhere. the Magistrate has to do it, itae of his a bord for heavy damages that this undertaking in common with everyone else, should be only duties. A further improvement is that while will be carried out. You can only ask that the too glad to see pirates and robbers turned out of auder the old practice, bat not by express undertaking be given. If you are not satisfied this place and punished by their own authorities, enactment, the Magistrate reported to the Go- with that yon simply say to China "I will ex- but I do not believe that this is the sole object of the vernor after he committed a fagitive criminal tradite no oas.” Are you prepared then for the Chinese authorities. I believe there is the desire to await the Governor's orders, by this Bill it is result F Recollect this has boon going on for on their part to maintain their dominion over forty years and certainly for the last ten or their countrymen who live across the water, and proposed he shall do that as a duty and sha!] particularly report on certain matters which fifteen years no prisoner has heau given up with anything which tends here to weaken the bonds hareulready been mentioned and which I need pot out a direct undertaking from the Viceroy of the which bind the Chinese residents to us would be detail further. Under the law as it stands there province that he should not be tortured. It isau orogedingly grave matter. I am satisfied, at is no provision as to what the Governor's powers exceedingly difficult to defiue what torture the present time, since this Ordinance has been are when a fugitive criminal awaits his orders. Our Trish fellow-countrymen when put discussed, that a great number of Chinese here This Bill gives powers to the Governor both as inte gaol declare that to be runde to wear who have heard of it, have been much alarmed to the surrender and discharge, and notwith- prison clothes and put on ordinary gaol furs My attention was drawn only to-day to the case standing anything that may have taken place is torture, because they are political pri of a Chinese gentlemaan of cousiderable position b fore the Magistrate it practically places the eonors, whereas other people take a different and standing, who has already paid large sus disposal of the fugitive criminal at the discro- viow It is extremely difficult to say what is of money to his own authorities, who having tion of the Governor. That is by section 34. tortare with regard to the matter of punish heard of the proposed clause of this Ordinauce
Hia EXCELLENCY-Allow me to say, it does went and not as a means of exacting evidence, as to the lapse of time in which he might be not place the matter at the discretion of the The Chinese look upon what we regard as for charged, said that if it were adopted he would Governor in case the Magistrate discharges him, Itare as part of the final punishment. It one pot fool safe anywhere. I add these few words but only in case the Magistrate commits.
thing to get an undertaking that a man ehall in support of what has been said by the unofficial not be tortured. but another to say to China members who have spoken before me, and I trust that they must sit aside entirely the whole of that time will be given for further consideration the laws of their country-and I believe that some of this Ordinance, of the laws of China with regard to the punish. The ACING ATTORNEY-GENERAL The Go ment of certain crimes are her fundamental lawa.
vernment oannot accede to the proposal that has There are certain phases in our method of execu-been made, for several reasons. The prosent tion by hanging which are torture. I have road of cases where men have been as long as twenty minutes alive before they died. This might be called torture. How you are to define for the benefit of a foreign Government where legitimate panishment ends and where torture begins is an What I say exceedingly difficult question. is that this Ordinance in no
way altera the present state of things; that is, the same undertaking will be obtained as has been obtained for years past, and therefore no objeg tion can be made to this Ordinance. If this Ordinance is not passed the existing Ordinance Hon. P. RYBIE-If this Ordinance makes no difference what is the use of it?
His EXCELLENCY-It makes un difference whatever as regards the matter of torture. The instructions which have been received from the Secretary of State in years psat will remain the
remaina in force as before.
same as before.
Hon. P. RYRI-Otherwise than that does this Ordinance give the Government very great powers? I do not see tht it does.
His EXCELLENC-lt contains very great im provements. I have them written out here and I will read them if the hon. member likes. The question is, does the hon, member oppose the Becond reading ?
Hon. P. RYRINI do; I propose the Bill be
laid on the table this day six months.
HOD. B. LATTON-1 felt very much inclined
1
i
to
The ACTING ATTORN BY-GENERAL--The last matter I need mention is found in section 15. Suppose the fugitive criminal has been com nitted to prison to await the Governor's orders and nothing is done for two months. power is given to a judge of the Supreme Court to dis-: charge him on notice to the Crown Solicitor. So Bill is a great improvement on the law as it at that I think the hon. members will see that at present stands. That law has been in operation any rate this Urdinause is inure definite and since 1950. It was made under the Treaty of simplifies and explains more clearly the pro- the Bogus, which provided that persons who had sedure and practice for carrying out the Treaty
committed crimes and offences" in Chins were of Tientsin. to be given up. Then came the Treaty of Tien-
His EXCELLENCY-1 regret I am not able tain, which left the mattor still more vague, be-
to give way to the hon. members on this cause you had no description of crimes and of fences, but were simply told you had to give point, and I think their apprehensions on the subject will be dispelled by the statement of up "criminals "* Then, again, there was
the Attorney-General and by further considera- another diffulty. Under the Treaty of Tian- tion of the Bill. I did not wish to say so dis tsin you had to give them up. or place themtinctly, but as a matter of fact the purpose at the disposal of the Governor, on proof which I hoped at one time to achieve by this of guilt. Cuder Ordinance 2 of 1850 the Bill is now entirely set aside. This Bill, as 1 Magistrate had place these fugitive have always said, was an alternative which I did criminals at the disposal of the Governor, by not prefer, but which was adopted by Her committing them to prison. if he had probable Magesty's Government. With that clause left cause for believing the accused had committed cat, as a matter of fact, extradition will be no such crime or offence. It has always been
easier, certainly with regard to any persons aA question a question which was raised in the to whom there is the least probability of in- Kwok Asing one--what was the meaning of nocence, than before, on the contrary, I think the words "örimes and offences or "criminal, as used in the treaties of the Bogue and Tientsin, after the statement of the Attorney-General- Hon. P, RYKIE-The squeezers who come and the learned judges in the Kwok Asing case from Canton will find it aneb easier. said they had great difficulty, in constrning the treaty, to decide what crimes and offences were
HIS EXCELLENCY-I beg not to be inter- intended. Now in this Ordinance wo harerupted. I think hon. members will find as re- for the first time an express list of the offences lieved in in the colony, or as to whom there is the
gards people whose honesty is generally be for which extradition may be granted. That list is no doubt framed partly on the Kwok least doubt as to their being criminals, this Bill will make it unch more difficult to extradite Asing case and is actually a copy of the list of crimes in the Extradition Acts in force in Eng. then than at present. So far from there being any cause for fear, with that clause withdrawn hon. members' point of view. The Bill is an im- there is rather cause for rojoicing, even from the provement on the law as it stands. There are many things which have been a continual subject of dis cassion with Her Majesty's "overnment that will be disposed of in the respects mentioned by the Attorney-General. I think the improvement is desirable, and I do not feel justified in foregoing
to agree with what the hon. number has said land. So far as that goes, I think the hon. in opposition to the Bill when I came here this members will son this Bill is an improvement afternoon, but it seems to me that after what has on the old law. Thea, again, as regards been told us, that this particular olause has been those words, "proof of guilt" and "probable removed, the most objectionable feature has cause," this Bill attempts to give a definition, been taken away and there is little else left, be because it enacts, in lien of the old provi- cance this Ordinance is simply one to amend sion, that the Magistrate, if after investiga. the existing one. The principal object fo the ting the case ho thinks it one he ought to cou. Ordinance was, it seems to me, to jutroduce clause mit for trial at the Supreme Court, had the 16. If you abolish that, what is the use of the alleged offence been committed in the jurisdiction the second reading of the Bill. I am perfectly Ordinance? You are simply carrying a similar of this colony, shall commit the fagitire willing to consider any amendmente that may Ordinance with a few smalt alterations, aud criminal to prison to await the orders of the be proposed in committee, but beyond that I cannot see what use it is unless it is distinctly Governor. Then there are other improvements cannot go. The question is whother the Bill be understood that there is an arrangement in the law. In practica certain restrictions on fread a second time. that before prisoners are given up they the surrender of facitive craints have best The Council divided :-- are not to be subjected to tortare. I think recognised; first, with regard to political offoness | that a very serious matter indeed. Your Ex. and, secondly, with regard to the subjecThe Acting Registrar-General cellency says that has always been understood.; which the kan. the senior nuofficial The Acting Attorney-General If that is so why pass this
this Bill F
member has meationed,
The Acting Colonial Treasurer namely, tertare; but hitherto there has been no provision in the The Governor
The Colonial Secretary His EXCELLENCY-There are a good many law as it at present stands for these restrictions. reasons. Do you second the hou. member's The present Bill has three if not four ra objection to the second reading?
strictions; the first is for political offences, that) is an express enactment, the second is that a
ÀYDY,
NOER.
Hon. J. J. Kenwick Hon. B. Layton
on. Wong Shing Hon. P. Kyrie
The second reading was therefore carried. His EXCELLENC-Now, gentleman, I sbali not take the Committee to-day. I think if you will think over what the Attorney-General has
Hon. B. LAYTON-Yes, your Excellency. Hoa. J. J. KESIK-I should like to say a fugitive criminal who has been accused of an said you will see I am perfectly justified in what few words in support of my colleagues' offence within British jurisdiction or is under I am doing, and that there is really more securi- proposal that this Bill be postponed. I going soutence nuder any conviction in the feel very strongly that the scope of this colony shall not be surrendered until after he bay under this Bill for law-abiding inhabitants Bill is likely to produce effects which very been discharged whether by acquital or on expira that I have given notice I intend to introduce→→ than before I mean with these amendments few of oan foresee. I am quite sure, for tion of his sentence or otherwise; and the third and I think even the Hon. Mr. Ryr'e will coms cne or two reasons, that the Bill is unnecessary; restriction is that he shall not be given up auless on calm consideration to agree with it. One reason why it is onneessary is that I feel an engagement is given by the Chinese Govern- certain-it amounts to a conviction in my windmont that he shall not until he has hea rantoned It will create great terror among the Chinese, Hoo. P. RYSIE-I don't see the object of it,
tarly enough be surrendered on documeo- j
and for nothing at all. I don't think the Chi- Bese authorities would trouble themselves to make an Ordinance for us.
HIS EXCELLENCY-There may be certain terror, but it is at all events something to say you have got rd of at least one hundred well- known criminals in a day.
Hon. P. RYKIE-I suppose they were told their heads were going to be cut off.
His EXCELLENOY-I have got a list of them. Let me suggest to the bon. member (Hon. J. J. Keswick) to impress upon his Chinese friends Attorney-General has said, and I think TRAŽENOSTRES were fesland t
Supple
ment to the Daily Ress 10th June 1889
THE CHINESE EXTRADITION BILL.
The action of the Anofficial members in opposing the Chinese Extradition Bill in the Legislative Council, after the announcement that the clause admitting evidence taken in to be struck out, Chincse courts cannot be considered very wise. To that clagse there were undoubted and weighty have rejected the objections, and
was
to
Bill on its account, had it been intend- ed that the clause should remain part of the measure, would have been a perfectly Bat justifiable and understandable course. with that clauso removed the Bill in every respect tells in favour of persons whose ex- tradition may be applied for. Not only does it substitute order for disorder in the proce dare, but it gives the accused full opportu- nity of establishing his innocence or throw- ing doubt on the bona fides of the prosecution. The Bill was opposed by the unofficial members under the impression that they were fighting the battle of the Chinese residents of the colony, whereas really they were doing exactly the op- posite. The withdrawal of the objection- able clanse came somewhat as a surprise, i and possibly caused some confusion in the minds of the hor, members, but if they had given any previous consideration to the Bill they ought to have apprehended the effect of the change before the division stage was reached. That the old extradition law was defective is an undeniable fact, and its opera- ition has been attended by various scandals, such as the detention of men in gaol for 'many months while their case was under consideration, the interference of the Execu five with the Magistrates in the conduct of An the inquiry, and various other matters. amendmeat of the law in the direction of regalating the procedure is greatly needed f extradition is to go on), and when this can be secured not only without in any way increasing any danger to which Chinese re- sidents may be expos. d from the machina- tions of the mandarms, but while actually increasing their safeguards, to oppose the measure seems not only unjustifiable but કરે ૪૩. Had the object of the Bill been to establish extradition, or, as was the case in the first instance, to facilitate it, its policy wight fanly have formed a subject for difference of opinion, and the opposition would have been recoguised as ressonable, bat with the removal of clause 16 no one can possibly deny that the Bill effects great and wuch needed improvements in the existing law.
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80
The real question which it was sought to dispose of by the Bill as originally rafted will now be left precisely where WAX. IL is alleged that numerons criminals from the neighbouring pic vince take refuge in the colony, and that they use Hongkong as a basis from which to vomimit depredations in the mainland. So long as they do not offend against the laws i of the colony they are practically safe and eannot be interfered with. In law they are liable to reudition, at the process is costly and cuebrous that the Chinese Au thorities have given up applying for fugitive criminals. The object of section 16 was to faciluate the giving up of such persons by providing that depositions taken in China should be received in evidence in the courts of this colony. This having been struck out, it will be no easier for the Chinese authorities to secure an offender who has taken refuge in this colony than it was bes fore, and the Bill will only be found useful to regulate the procedure when the Chinese in some particular case may apply for rondi. 1
tion notwithstanding the great cost. The matter has not, however, reached the stage of finality, we believe. The Go- vernor spoke of clause 16 of the Bill as an alternative which he did not prefer him- Į self but which had been approved by the Secretary of State. That alternative not having been carried into effect, the Governor will probably again urge the other, to which he gives his preference, but the nature of which he has not publicly disclosed. It is impossible that things en go on as they are. The Roo. P. RYRIE says, "give up rendi- tion altogether," and that is practically what bas been done, for the cost and difficulty render it prohibitive. Bar, having agreed by treaty to give up to China ber fugitive criminals, common honesty demands that we should carry out our obligatione, and self-interest points in the same direction, for not only do we net want the colony to be- come the resort of the rascaldom of Kwang- tung, but if we do not carry out our treaty obligations to China bow can we complain if China does not carry out her obligations?
Of course little rex] value could be attached to evidence purporting to be taken in Chi- nese courts, but with the safeguards prorid- ed by the Extradition Bill againet any respectable resident being given up elanse 16 seemed not wholly nudeserving of consi deration. The chance of the class of men to whom the Hon. J. J. KESWICK referred, men against whom there is some poli- tical charge or men wire are wanted be- eanse they have come from Penang or Singapore or some other place where the Chinese anthorities could not levy charges upon them," being given up, was, under the provisions of the Bill, rendered exceedingly remote, and the Chinese Authorities, if they had tried to
use the law against this class would
discovered the 8001 bave futility of the attempt. The surrender of criminals who bad fled direct to the colony would have been rendered easy, but reputable residents were well protected. The clause has, however, been abandoned, and we cannot profess to regret it, for it does not strike ns A by any means the best possible solution of the difficulty, The subject is important enough to warrant the negotiation of n special extradition treaty with China, if the object cannot be attained otherwise. Soeh treaty might import into the exist- ing agreement such limitations as those
Governor which the
Monday said could not be included in the Ordinance for the reason that they were limitations of a treaty. As to the policy of readily giving up real criminals who may flee to this colony there can be no two opinions. It is true the bar barous nature of the Chinese criminal code and procedure makes the duty of giving up any man, however abandoned he may be, at exceedingly unpleasant one, but as the Hon.! Mr. KESWICK Baid, "the circumstances of Hongkong, in which we are placed, are en- turely different from those which obtain else. where," and if those circumstances render it essential that we should not do anything which would tend to weaken the bonds which bind the respetable Chinese residents to the codes, dy nebo pod ris esseal that We summed up at wlang k-ny to becobin 14 refuge for Chinese criminals op a basis for their depredations in China,
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